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March 19, 2017

There are many aspects of this truck gun debate. [Bumped]


Yes, there could possibly be a time when you could leave a mass shooting,
sprint your 300 lb. body 150 yards to the back of the parking lot of the movie theater, fighting the hundreds of hysterical people trying to escape, unchain your AK74 shorty after fumbling with your key for the lock from under your back seat which is filled with 4 bug out bags, a kids car seat and 14 McDonalds bags of trash, put on your plate carrier and chest rig, then sprint 150 yards back in, fighting the flow of the crowd, manage to not alarm them being kitted up like a SWAT member with your rifle at high port, smoke check the shooter, and manage not to be shot by responding Law Enforcement. But just exactly how likely is that? Defeating Doomsday Derp: Redemption in the 3rd Act by John Meyers | ZeroGov

Posted by gerardvanderleun at March 19, 2017 8:11 AM. This is an entry on the sideblog of American Digest: Check it out.

Your Say

Good stuff and I agree with most.
I NEVER use the bolt release on any handgun.
I've seen too many misfires, where the cartridge does not seat well in the chamber.

On the last shot, where the bolt locks to the rear, right after I drop the mag and as I'm reaching for the next, I hit the bolt release, insert the new mag, and rack the slide, firmly seating it forward. If there is an issue I know it right then, not when I pull the trigger.

If there is a problem and you don't manually rack it it will catch you off guard and your shit will be in the wind.

If there is a problem I just rack it again and see what happens. Regardless, I am in front of the game. Don't be Hollywood, be real.

Tip O' the day:
When moving backwards drag your feets on the floor so that if you run into a chair or a curb you don't lose your balance.

2nd Tip O' the day:
When moving keep your weapon tight against your chest with both hands to reduce your radius allowing you to turn faster. Only extend your arms when you are actively getting ready to shoot.

Now get off your ass and get outside and do it!

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 11, 2017 1:11 PM

Sensible advice. I carry to protect ME, not to be the hero at the next mass shooting. While I've had good training and practice frequently, I harbor no illusions about my chances of saving the day, and if I can get the hell out of Dodge without becoming involved or a statistic, that's what I'll do.

On the question of using the release or racking the slide, I've noticed that Glocks often render this question irrelevant. Slap the magazine into the well with some authority, and the slide will frequently release on its own, and be in battery. Whether this is a bug or a feature, I don't know, but I've used it to my advantage quite a bit during timed shoots, and is partly the reason I bought a Glock. The M1911A1 I carried in the Army back in the day didn't do this, and neither did the Beretta M9.

Posted by: waltj at March 11, 2017 5:36 PM

I would question the reliability of any gun that did such a thing. Unpredictable.

I have 2 Beretta's and neither have done that and they've both seen a couple thousand rounds. My neighbor is a Glock freek and has 13 of them so I'll ask him about that. I don't believe it's a feature as he's the one that got me to start manually racking a new mag. He's been to every class Max and Mosby have done and many others.

For the record, I don't like semi-auto guns that don't have an external hammer and a distinct safety.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 11, 2017 7:07 PM

Truck gun you say? This fits so nicely under my driver seat. Talk about reliable. http://www.deploymentessentials.com/sig-sg-552-commando-one-best-assault-rifles-hands/

Posted by: Doug at March 11, 2017 7:30 PM

Very good points. See also, "Public killings and armed citizenry," which shows some other reasoning loopholes that Second Amendment advocates (I am one myself) jump through.

Posted by: Donald Sensing at March 11, 2017 7:40 PM

Ghost offers good advice, as usual.

I was an exclusive 1911 guy for years and hated Glocks. They are ugly as hell. I shot one a few times and now my normal carry gun is a Glock 17. I have thousands of rounds through it and have never had the slide fall forward on magazine insertion.

You will fight like you train. If there are gunshots inside the theater you are in, it is likely going to be over pretty quick whether you want to be the hero or not. Exits will be jammed with folks wanting out. You may as well stand and fight.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 12, 2017 8:04 AM

@Snake, qualified with a 1911 in the army and carried it a few times as payroll guard, didn't care for it. Felt awkward in my hand. A friend came by with a Beretta 92 and as soon as my fingers wrapped around it I was smitten, ran out and bought the 92FS, the silver one with black grips. That was 15 years ago.

I don't dislike Glocks, in fact they feel real nice in the hand - even heavily stippled as my neighbors are. They just seem to be, to me, unnecessarily more dangerous than I'm comfortable with. If there's no round in the chamber they are completely safe/inert. But my Beretta can have one in the pipe and safety on and be just as safe.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 12, 2017 12:13 PM

It is my opinion that most people obsessed with weapons to protect "me" probably ought to just be shot out of hand. For what good to society are you if your only purpose for being armed is to protect yourself.

You half-witted Rambo-types can pound your chests in describing the best weapons and how to carry them ... and how to shoot them, but how many of you are willing to lay down your life for someone else who you may not even know?

Oh, I carry. But only after long soul searching consideration did I decide to carry. I don't carry for me. If someone wants to shoot me, that's fine. I am confident of my place in eternity and confident of anyone's place who would kill me or another innocent person.

So be it.

I carry because I believe I will have to answer for not stopping evil from taking the life of the innocent. So, when evil kicks my door in at 1am, they will face my various and sundry 9mm, .44mag, .40cal's ... and, of course, 12ga. But they won't be facing it for "me", they'll be facing it because I will not stand before G-d in eternity and tell Him that I did nothing to protect His children (my wife and kids).

So, you dumb ass preppers out there, prep-away. When the apocalypse really does come, I'm going to be sitting on that hill 400 yards away and shooting your stupid asses. Why? Because I know you don't give a sh-ite about anything but yourselves. And in the apocalypse, you are just protein anyway so I won't have to answer to G-d. Boiled long enough, your scrawny stupid ass will taste just fine. :-)

Posted by: edaddy at March 12, 2017 6:39 PM

Take comfort that you are not one of those "half-witted Rambo-types" edaddy. Anyone who reads your comment can spot that right away.

Loved the part about boiling long enough so that "scrawny stupid asses taste just fine". Clearly you are a serious man.

Posted by: Monty James at March 12, 2017 6:57 PM

Well i hope eternity is equally confidant in your choices edaddy. I am curious about your tastes in humanity though, cannibalism is such a strong statement. My wife and i are Glock and me type of people and proud of it.

Posted by: eclectic kelvin at March 13, 2017 4:27 AM

When the door is kicked in at 1am the hypocritical lying bastard will defile it's thong.

A pussy brain perched upon a whiny obese ass.

"The world began the day I was born."
--gs, 2099

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 13, 2017 4:52 AM

Glock 21 owner here.
When I insert the magazine with a little extra force, the slide comes forward to "automatically" load the first round.
I was shown this by another Glock owner, and have always considered it a "feature".

Posted by: orcadrvr at March 13, 2017 1:19 PM

OK, how does it do that?
Have you investigated as to how that happens?
The magazine is metal, the receiver is metal, so what is it about *using force*, as opposed to not using force, that cause the bolt to come loose from it's catch and slide forward?
I'm interested from a mechanical perspective.
Is the amount of force "adjustable" so that the mag insertion would always release the bolt?

Something seems fishy about the arbitrariness of the method.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 13, 2017 3:07 PM

Glock mags are largely plastic. Metal liner & spring only. The lower receiver is plastic with metal parts. The upper receiver is mostly metal, with a few plastic parts.

I am going to have to do some extra hard mag inserts and see what happens, but that has never occurred with my prior on my G17 Gen 2. I've shot several other Glock models also.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 13, 2017 3:31 PM

Oooh, Snakepit is griping about plastic glocks...Nobody has heard that before. Lol.

Ghost, he's interested "from a mechanical perspective". Oh, sure! For a prepper gun nut that's like a liberal declaring he has "black friends."

Eclectic K, someone once said human flesh isn't worth crap because it's too stringy. Now, I have never tasted human flesh and hope I don't have to. I prefer beef, lamb, bacon, turkey and chicken, in that order. But, when the apocalypse comes and everyone has been taken to heaven but me and nothing to eat, then it just won't matter, will it?

It will just be me stuck down here with Armageddon all around me. Gog here, and Magog there. What's a fella gotta do if'n he gets hungry?

A lot of them gun-toting preppers are sly buggers and will get past me. After I run out of them, I'm heading for the suburbs. Man, have you seen all them fat women and their bastard children in suburbia. Dayum! Protein AND fat, all at the same time. Why, do you realize how long you could survive on a one fat single mother from suburban Seattle, or Portland ... or even Atlanta?

Wake up, people! It's right there on the hoof. Prepping.is.not.necessary.with.fat.single.moms.all.around.you! Hello!!

Posted by: edaddy at March 13, 2017 6:28 PM

I don't really know the mechanics of it, ghost.

It doesn't seem to be a "feature" shared by other firearms as far as I know.

My other Glock is a 42, which is too small to slam the magazine in to test the theory.

Posted by: orcadrvr at March 13, 2017 8:34 PM

edaddy, you can have my SPAM stash.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 14, 2017 4:33 AM

Glocks are fine weapons, have shot my friends multiple times and have found it to everything one needs in a hand gun. Safety features, or rather lack thereof, is concerning but overall just fine.

Personally I own a Berretta 92 Cougar and again, it’s a fine weapon. Trigger function is something one has to get use. The military used Berretta’s for 30 years so they must have done something right.

At the end of the day, the best handgun is the one you own. Mine was used, priced right and available. Now it’s on my hip. If yours is also, you’ve done good, don’t care about the make or model.

Also, never understood the big debate about personal protection and being a “hero”. What is this based on? When has this happened? Besides in the minds of interweb commenters?

Yea, I get it, priority #1 is take care of oneself and your love ones but sticking around to help others is “being a hero”? Well OK, run away you big, awesome cowboy. I’m sure you’ll sleep fine.

And if being prepared, “prepping”, is a bad thing, then so be it. I’ll be glad to wave that flag…at you while you’re waiting in line for your government cot/meal and or having to physically go at it, every day, maybe multible times a day, with some lunatic(s)...for scraps, a sip of filthy water…whatever you can find…yea, no.

But don’t worry, it could never happen here…bet your pretty wife and daughter’s lives on it.

Posted by: tim at March 14, 2017 9:04 AM

It's a troll.
It was given enough rope to hang itself.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 14, 2017 10:59 AM

Tim wrote, "The military used Berretta’s for 30 years so they must have done something right."

Which made me spew coffee across the room.

We (I am a retired Army artillery officer) had the damn Berettas jammed down our throats by the politicians (who else?) because they wanted to spread some wealth around NATO countries who whined that we didn't outsource or offshore enough in our acquistition process.

It is true that our M1911A1s were ancient. The ones I carried were made before WW2, but that is not a good reason to replace them with that POS Beretta 92. Jeepers I hated that gun.

Funny thing: when I was on the XVIII Airborne Corps pistol team and we were shooting the Berettas, and the Delta guys came to shoot, they never used Berettas.

And sure enough, the Beretta 9mm was wholly inadequate in the WOT.

Posted by: Donald Sensing at March 14, 2017 2:12 PM

Not to get into a gun argument but, you're full of it. The Beretta 92F is an amazing work of engineering produced by the oldest firearm manufacturer on the earth. Operator error is it's worst enemy and the military's are the worst operators. Guess why.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 14, 2017 2:23 PM

Ease up Sportsfans! Most mass produced modern guns are well made, Glocks,Berettas, various 1911s, etc. I think most of it comes down to personal preference. From my gun range experience, a Glock almost never breaks. The Beretta 92s break sometimes break between the barrel and slide release hole under the barrel. Personally, I cannot easily reach the safety on a Beretta 92. If I trained with it day in/out, I would solve that. The polar opposite of the Glock is the 1911. I bought a Colt Gubmint Model Colt Mk IV Series 80 NIB when I turned 21. I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds out of it. Parts have worn out, but I think not due to poor quality but simple 30 years of use.

Maybe I have said this once or twice (or more) prior, but you will fight like you train. Regardless the quality handgun, you will be capable if you consistently train.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 14, 2017 7:19 PM

"I would question the reliability of any gun that did such a thing. Unpredictable...."

I have been using my Glock23 in IDPA competitions for 15 years, and shoot 1500-ish rounds per year through that gun. As you well know, recoil springs do wear out and need to be replaced from time-to-time, but at one point, and with a certain spring tension, my Glock would behave in this manner with complete reliability.

I've got a bad habit of releasing the slide with the slide stop lever. It is something that I've tried to break myself of, but that said, I've not had any reliability problems from releasing the slide this way, as opposed to bringing my weak hand over the top of the slide to "slingshot" the slide into battery.

As far as running back to the truck to retrieve my
(hypothetical) "truck gun" to stop a mass shooting, that is simply nonsense. Once I've got my family and myself away from the danger, the last thing I'm going to do is to go back in there. And when I'm safely at home in bed that night, I expect to sleep well. The other responsible adults have the same right to carry as I do. If they choose to spend their lives unarmed, then that is a choice that they will also have to bear some responsibility for.

Posted by: azlibertarian [TypeKey Profile Page] at March 14, 2017 9:49 PM

So a *relaxed* buffer spring might be the culprit.
On my Beretta there is a slight *ledge* on the bolt release that engages said bolt when it is in the rear most position. I can see where, with extensive use, the corner of that *ledge* could become worn, sort of rounded over, and allow the opportunity for the bolt to be forced forward by the buffer spring if something forcefully vibrates it.

If anything unusual were to occur with any of my guns, such as bolts slamming forward, I'd take it completely apart and study what is causing it. If what I described above is the problem perhaps a new bolt release catch would solve it. I don't like unpredictability in a fire arm.

FWIW, I recently purchased a new Remington 870 Marine Magnum and it has an unpredictablity issue that is being elusive. I have another version of this gun that has been problem free for more than 10 years.

I bought a shit load of 12ga ammunition at Walmart a couple years ago, some 500+ rds, and many of them thus far will cycle properly thru this gun. I'll get maybe 2 rds down the pipe then the 3rd one fails to eject, requiring a dowel forced down the barrel rather forcefully to knock it out of the chamber. It appears the chamber is too tight after the round is fired. These are Winchester brand cartridges. This has not happened with any other brand of ammo, just the Winchesters from Walmart. I have spent hours *massaging* the chamber with a jewelers barrel on my Dremel in that chamber trying to slightly enlarge it but to no success. Chamber metal is unbelievably hard stuff. Those Walmart cartridges perform flawlessly in my other 870 and my Winchester model 12. Using a digital micrometer I know the the brass cartrige bases are larger in diameter after they have fired. As it stands I do not trust this gun to perform 100% of the time. I am considering sending it to Remington to be repaired.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 15, 2017 4:32 AM

My tactical reload drill, with my Glock 19, always includes a forceful magazine placement resulting "in battery" immediately. Gentle placement does not. Works great for me. Side note, I am missing thumb on strong hand so can't work thumb safeties, therefore Glock.

Posted by: Tripletap at March 15, 2017 5:33 AM

Missing thumb, and you can still grasp the gun?
Good one!

In my last post it should have read that the Winchester cartridges "will cycle IMproperly".

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 15, 2017 8:42 AM

Mr. Sensing,

I’m fully aware there are politics involved in the weapon selection process for the military. Also, no doubt no matter what pistol had been selected to replace the ole .45 in the mid 80’s there would be its detractors and by the same token its champions. A perfect example is the M16 and it variants. For every complaint one reads there are just as many, if not more, positive remarks.

To say flatly that the only Berretta was selected for the reasons you state with absolutely nothing to back it up only leaves me to believe it’s your opinion alone. Which is fine, we all them, but it doesn’t make it fact.

Which dovetails into why you “hated” the Berretta…no reason, not one measly sentence. Curious.

But you did go on to state that the Delta guys didn’t use them, so I’m left to reason that’s why you hated it.

My limited understanding is that the SF are giving freedom in choosing what they carry and many of those weapons are not standard issue, for various reasons – weight, safety location/function, material composition and corrosion factors, etc. Also, a huge factor is caliber, of which the standard issue 9mm just doesn’t seem to do it for them. Not a huge shock considering what they do.

However, using the SF, and especially Delta force, as the barometer in weather or not the Berretta is a good STANDARD issue weapon probably isn’t fair.

Lastly, back to the original post/comments concerning choses of running or sticking around to put one in harm’s way during a mass shooting; I thought of a post by you that was linked her a couple years ago. As I recall you stated that cops actually don’t have a responsibility to act and save civilians from such. Which I took exception to and unfortunately used some colorful language to show my displeasure with your reasoning. If I didn’t then, I’m apologize now for that, I should have been mature about. In hindsight, what I should have said was “I’m sorry, Mr. Sensing, but I’m dumber for having read your drivel no matter how well meaning it was”.

Good day, for now, since where I live in Western NY it’s ben snowing for going on 48 hours and it's not going to stop for another 6, the accumulation is approaching 2 feet and I’m probably going to high tail it out of here soon.

Posted by: tim at March 15, 2017 8:50 AM

Ghost, this backs up what you were saying about the Winchester ammo:

View From The Porch: Next Test

She discusses quality control problems with Winchester ammo, in this case pistol ammo. If it could be narrowed down to one manufacturer, it might not be necessary to ream out your chamber; just don't use Winchester. Good luck with your fix in any case.

Posted by: Monty James at March 15, 2017 12:03 PM

@Monty, thanks. Uncanny she posted that on the very day I complained about it. HA!

But, my new 870 is the only gun, that experienced the misfire while while 3 others, including 2 870's, did not. I have also put a fair amount of Remington ammo through that 870 and have not experienced a misfire yet.

I'd like to see a professional opinion on why this is happening. She intimated that a low powder burn was the reason, in the pistol ammo, but what does that mean? It also seemed like the case on the spent cartridge was bowed out.


Regarding the overall picture, everybody is gonna run whatever they want until they don't wanna any more. I likes my Beretta, now, but maybe tomorrow I won't. That's just the way it is.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 15, 2017 2:11 PM

The ammo sounds defective to me also. For fun I would measure the outside diameter of the brass to see if it is any larger than other ammunition that cycles well in your 870. If the brass is expanding too much then it could be due to the thickness or metal quality. Also not sure why but slower burning powders are often also used in magnum cartridges. Summary: too much pressure for the brass, but you already know that. At least you know what ammo to NOT take to a fight.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 16, 2017 5:04 AM

Well, Tim me man, argue with me all you want, but take it up with these guys: "Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone":

WASHINGTON, June 27 [2005] - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

I hope you will note that Scalia wrote the majority opinion. This was extensively - and approvingly - noted by various 2A journals at the time.

There - you're not dumber any more. Have a nice day!

Posted by: Donald Sensing at March 16, 2017 1:14 PM

Ghost, I would check the ejector. I prefer win Ammo to most others and have less trouble than any other. No expert

Posted by: Mhf at March 16, 2017 1:18 PM

@Mhf, the original ejector RIPS a groove through the rim of the shell if yanked back hard enough.

When I push the shell out of the chamber with a 5/8" dowel from the muzzle end it takes quite a bit of force. I don't think it's the gun because at least 3 other brands of ammo don't do that in it.

But the bad ammo in question doesn't misfire in other shotguns. The other shotguns however have extensive use, more than 10,000 rds through each.
Maybe the chambers have *loosened up* from the use?

Having said all of that, I have a number of parts on order from Brownell's right now to convert this 870 into a full tactical and a new ejector is part of the package.

From now forward I will use ammo other than that in question in that gun and monitor it very closely. If I can get 1000 rds thru it without a similar incident I will consider it trustworthy.

And I will find another use for the *faulty* ammo.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 16, 2017 2:42 PM

My 1st truck gun,a Ruger 22,was stolen along with the contents of my ashtray,spare change I tossed in there. Little neighborhood shitbird was the culprit. Urban life is a mixed bag.

Posted by: Nori at March 16, 2017 9:22 PM

convenience vs inconvenience

I've had both.
I prefer ruralville because the presumed inconvenience is mostly illusory.

Being close to stores makes you spend more money.
The retailers like being convenient.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 17, 2017 4:31 AM

This entire truck-gun thing sounds like someone in search of an argument. Has the author identified anyone who has proposed leaving the scene of a shooting in order to kit up as described and return to it?

Posted by: Mikey NTH at March 17, 2017 6:44 AM

I stand corrected. When cramming a full magazine violently into my G17, the slide falls forward pushing a fresh round into the chamber. It will not do such on an empty magazine, only full.

Posted by: Snakepit Kansas at March 18, 2017 5:12 PM

I see I'm hardly the only one who has experienced the "speedloading" feature of Glock pistols. I won't worry about it, then, and continue to use it.

Regarding truck guns and such, all my recent training has been in how to Get Off the "X", not in offensive tactics. I'm not a police officer, and my experience as an infantryman was decades ago. I'm also not a "prepper", however anyone cares to define that. I'm an ordinary guy who happens to carry legally and have a fair amount of proficiency in using firearms. That's it. I claim no special expertise in ending mass killings. If shooting or stabbing or whatever starts close to me, then I am probably better prepared than most to defend myself. But it would be foolish for me, a civilian, to wade into what would likely be a chaotic situation, try to identify a target, take that target out without hitting an innocent, and then not get taken out myself by the SWAT guys.

Posted by: waltj at March 18, 2017 7:12 PM

During the handful of times per year that we go to a sit down restaurant I always sit in a booth by a window as far away from the entrance as possible, facing the entrance door.

I also survey the immediate area for several things - the type of people and where they are located. It takes nanoseconds to do this and is a habit.

In the event a maniac comes in the entrance with a gun brazened immediately I will determine whether I can take him out safely and surely with my own gun, or whether I have to dump the fat kow out of the chair at the closest table and throw said chair through window, and extract my wife and myself.

Because I am as far away from the entrance as possible, to give myself as much time as possible to react, most likely I will not pull my gun because of the number of frantic people between myself and the perp.

Long ago I did extensive EMT work and can write a book about the over-emotionalism by formerly normal people, suffice to say, if mass mania is a thing people in crowds are the epitome.

So if it goes down more than likely that kow is gonna be deadlined and me and mine are going to try to gain traction in that pile of glass snow on the ground outside that window.

My vehicle is 4x4 so I will indeed go cross country getting out of that parking lot as quickly as possible.

I will not be a witness nor a person of interest if possible.

If I have no choice in any of this, I will be Batman or dead.

Posted by: ghostsniper at March 19, 2017 8:01 AM

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