January 9, 2014

"Learned Helplessness:" Comment of the Month at the Turn of the Year [Archived Thread]

[Note: The Archived thread for The Top 40: "Learned Helplessness:" Comment of the Month at the Turn of the Year [Bumped 3] with comments in the extended entry. A discussion held between the first and the sixth of January.]


As found in Side-Lines: How Come?
The "learned helplessness" is so deep it shows up even in our fantasy life. This is why I beg people to find ANY way to fight back. Stop looking for The One way to fight back. To make up for not fighting back we imagine we, or someone that will fight on our behalf, will find the one unguarded and vital target where we can attack and win in an instant. Politically, we fantasize about finding the weak spot in The Death Star and firing a kill shot.

The Left didn't bring the country under their control that way. The Left has published books on how to fight the system. They fought the system. They now own the system. The Left waged a Long March through the culture. We keep engaging in Short Retreats to the next "gated-community" that we hope will protect us from liberal domination.

Start fighting in small ways, anywhere, and it will give you confidence to fight more and the tide will turn IF liberals find they can't rely on never finding opposition. Use direct language. Call them communists, racists, sexist, traitors, etc. You don't gain respect by speaking in moderate language about the people that are setting fire to this country. This isn't Sunday School. This is a Civil War. The Left already knows it. They already fight like it's a Civil War. You might as well face up to it. Posted by: Scott M at December 31, 2013 1:14 PM

Start with the word'gay'.
Dont say 'gay' when you mean homosexual.
The liberals win every time you say 'gay' when you mean homosexual.
Take back our language!
Posted by: bgarrett at January 1, 2014 4:32 AM

I did just that the other week. Over at one of my local grocery stores, there was a woman petitioning for signatures. There was a young family signing (young father tattooed...) when she asked if I'd like to sign. I asked what for. She said medical marijuana...for the ill (bla bla bla). I started shouting obscenity after obscenity at her, saying she was a drug pusher trying to do an end run on legalizing pot. THEN: dear young tattooed daddy turns to me and says something like, "watch your language in fromt of the child." I go nuclear on him saying, "you're showing your kid how to break the law and do drugs, you should be ashamed of corrupting your child and YOU need parenting lessons." I left them both speechless...and me rather satisfied.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 1, 2014 4:35 AM

Teach your friends and family to shoot. Get them into it safely and break down stereotypes and prejudices. It can be a very effective means to drive a wedge between what the collective is saying and what they actually experience. Such cognitive dissonance breaks down barriers in other areas.
Posted by: RKV at January 1, 2014 6:57 AM

The liberals win every time you call a fascist a liberal.
Posted by: B Moe at January 1, 2014 8:06 AM

And the fact that the first two enemies identified on here are gays and pot heads are the real reason we are losing the war.
Posted by: B Moe at January 1, 2014 8:08 AM

I think it was the Democrat pollster Pat Cadell that said the difference between Democrats and Republicans, is that Democrats have a bigger drive to win. Republicans give up too easy, and console themselves with being gracious losers. It is a lesson to learn, if you don't stand for something, you don't seem to stand for anything.
Posted by: BB at January 1, 2014 9:05 AM

1) They have nearly total 'Air Superiority' (the media), Scott.
Anybody who they see as a threat will have their credibilty smashed to smithereens by eager liberal columnists and news editors. Even our own will turn on them and am amazed to hear even conservatives talk bad about them: Joe the Plumber, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, etc...
2) They have taken the ideological citadels either by Usurpation (Academia) or Supplantment (Christian Churches via the media and education) which are now churning out Lib-bots to swell the ranks of their 'Free Sh*t armies' that are being built.
The only way I think can defeat this cancer is to starve it of resources as the 'Free Sh*t Army' does NOT work - aside from voting. We starve them by standing aside allowing them to have their way: Free Health Care, Free Welfare, Free Food, Free Housing... Free, free, free... have their masters create new laws, new taxes, and new slogans.
...and stand aside.
Implosion will occur. The faster, the better. Heck, I may even start voting Democrat. Give 'em what they want.
Good and hard.
Meanwhile, I'm looking to start planting and canning.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 1, 2014 9:06 AM

It takes a family-
so grab your plastic buckets and beg at a busy intersection for money to send your team to baseball camp.
or find a job and pay for the trip yourself.
Posted by: Rocky at January 1, 2014 9:27 AM

Is cond0011 a drone, a drive by, a low information socialist voter or croatian style infiltrator.
The commentator's slogan would be "standing aside since 1903", or is it voting libertarian, so the democrats win ?
What vindication is it to see your
country fail ? See, "I told you so."
Posted by: grace at January 1, 2014 10:03 AM

No Grace, none of the above.
I'm here regularly - though less so of late.
I'm obviously on your radar now, so feel free to look around and read a few of my comments, here (or elsewhere).
I no longer consider myself a 'Republican' (after the 2012 Obama election), as I believe it needs to clean house of all those Ivy-League Statists that are driving the 'herd' ever so leftward and I no longer consider myself Conservative (as of the CPAC convention of 2013) as that, too has become too corrupted by international interests. Neither do I consider myself Libertarian, so I am a conservative with a small 'c'.
I guess the best description for who 'I am', would be a "Don't tread on me", Tea-Party, Post-Reagan Republican, or a Kennedy Democrat - the grouping of which are slowly disappearing into the mists of a dying era.
Look around... read.
Not a Troll.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 1, 2014 10:27 AM

All good points, ScottM, but taking baby steps without honest media reporting is doomed to fail.
Happy Acres is a master of the technique but has been a voice crying in the wilderness for years.
It IS a lot safer, however, than making a New Year's Revolution.
Posted by: Wednesday Anon at January 1, 2014 11:30 AM

Stop bitching about the media. If our plan only works when the media are fair we can't lose. I think the media is just another in the endless excuses for not acting. The media wasn't always 100% commielib. Nothing in this society was fully Left, until The Left went after it, and we retreated.
If you accept the media is informing everyone, to our disadvantage, then it's all the more important that you engage others, everywhere, with or without invitation. Be overheard in public disparaging Leftist efforts. YOU start the discussion, instead of being a good do-be keeping controversial issues under wraps.
Be The Left, but on our issues. Create a poop-storm when Leftists speak up, no matter where you are at or who they are. Offer resistance everywhere, all the time. Because we are quiet the undercover conservatives around us never see us. They get the false impression they are alone. WE OUTNUMBER THE LEFT, but we hide like freakin' moles. SPEAK and ACT, daily. Never accept quiet over conflict.
Start small, but start. You will see it's easier to make a difference and that realization will give you courage to do more. That is how The Left took over, they acted, and they expect their soldiers to act, not wait until every other November.
Posted by: Scott M at January 1, 2014 1:18 PM

Scott M reminds me of Puddleglum, stomping on the hypnotic fiery incense to rouse us out of our stupor.
Well done!
Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at January 1, 2014 4:51 PM

Cond0011 republicans are statists by nature, they vote for big government, they accept big government they want big government. They just want big government with an "R" behind it.
Kauf Buch is a great example, he supports the big government big spending failure of a government program called "the war on drugs." I am sure he also supports the s a great example, he supports the big government big spending failure of a government program called "the war on terror."
There is NO difference between the two parties anymore.
Republicans are red,
Democrats are blue,
Neither party gives a $#!+ about you.
Posted by: Potsie at January 1, 2014 4:55 PM

Scott, you are absolutely right. I am old...will be 70 next week. I am a conservative, always have been. I have watched, with horror, the Progressive movement over the last 40 years...slowly but surely, thru the babyboomers and now their children...Progressives start at local levels and quietly move upward. I live in Illinois. I live 500 miles from Chicago but that city basically rules my state. I'm sure you know what kind of mess Illinois is in...thank you, Progressives! I tend to enjoy politics, I speak out, I go door to door during elections...I wish now that I had done more. Since I'm old now, I could care less what people think...so I avidly post political news on FB and I call out my "friends" for their PC ( I believe in truthful words, not feelgood words). Anyway...as I said...you are right! We must no longer accept anything that goes against our beliefs..we must speak loudly and clearly and PC be damned. We must speak out...finally!
Posted by: Nancy at January 1, 2014 5:08 PM

UP YOURS, Potsie.
YOU and the so-called 'libertarians' support the Left by SABOTAGING efforts to get conservatives into power. There. I said it. Power.
libertarians are like hippie-trash, anarchists and Lucy-with-Charlie-Brown's-football ALL ROLLED UP IN ONE.
Example? Virginia's gubernatoral race. Cuccinelli was a solid man, but cut off at the knees by a Dem-funded 'libertarian'.
You allow yourselves to be USED by the Left on their society-destroying issues...they bark "marijuana! homosexual rights!" and you scream, "WOOF!".
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 1, 2014 8:24 PM

"Libertarians need to decide with whom it's easier to live: those who share the morality of the vast majority of our founders, who gave us the greatest document for self governance ever created by men; or those who seek fundamentally to change this republic into something that conservatives and libertarians both will lament."
FROM http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/12/neal_boortz_libertarianism_and_moral_government.html
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 1, 2014 8:26 PM

Libertarians are political posers. Either they are the most inept political movement in centuries, or almost all of them are perfectly satisfied to simply state they are opposed to A thru Z and nothing more. They share the "it's not perfect so it is no damn good" view of politics and America. Watch how mild they are in their criticism of the commielibs. It seldom rises above "yeah, they're bad too." Compare that to the red-hot anger they have toward conservatives and Republicans. Ignore the planned bankruptcy and destruction of society brought by the commielibs but rage like a mo-fo against the politicians that prefer we do nothing about gay marriage.
They want you to know that they are ideological pure. If that elects commielibs, so be it.
Posted by: Scott M at January 1, 2014 11:43 PM

"Cond0011 republicans are statists by nature, they vote for big government, they accept big government they want big government. "
Potsie... that was amazing ... the Turnspeak-to-Signal Ratio is nearly off the charts in this one sentence.
No need to answer you more than identifying the pointlessness of arguing with your turnspeak in that post other than saying 2+2 =/= 5,
"Turnspeak leads to psychological confusion and a feeling of being "burned-out" or "overwhelmed" with too much information, effectively creating a blanket of "white noise" which makes clarity difficult to achieve."
Posted by: Cond0011 at January 2, 2014 5:15 AM

"Stop bitching about the media. "
Then come up with a better answer that 'fight back'. As Conservatives, alot of what we are learning now has already been learned 30 years ago by a previous generation of conservatives. We are Re-learning the same thing they already knew.
Why was this not passed on to us? Why?
Because we went through the liberal Indoctrination known as 'school' and we sat through the smae Liberal 24/7 pulpit sermons also known as the media. Most of us became 'conservatives' INSPITE of all that brainwashing.
The say "Stop bitching about the media" is like a madman saying "stop saying the sky is blue": ITS THE MEDIAS JOB to paint the backdrop in everyones perspective. That is why the Liberals went after the media.
Well, Scott, the 'sky is blue', yes, a deep deep Liberal BLUE and there is not amount of railing that you can do to change that 'fact' - and the sky WILL fall on your head if you are considered a threat: Just like it did Joe the Plumber.
With the system the way it is now, it is a stacked deck. The younger generation doesn't listen to guys like us, ScottM - just like we didn;t listen to the 'old men' that we had known and they will 're-invent the wheel' all over again because the 'experts' that feed them their garbage (disguised as information) drowns out things that we learned the hard way - inspite of them.
Just like we did.
The system WILL crash, ScottM. As Bill Whittle said 'The Hammer of Reality' will fall - I have finally come to terms with it and I accept it will happen.
You haven't.
No worries, when ever I have the opportunity, I argue my conservative points out there in Realspace all the time. No I am not popular - no...not.at.all.
When the crash comes - and it will - then, and only then MAY the people learn - good and hard - that the trash the media and the schools are feeding them, are simply wrong.
But then, they may NOT learn. Look to the Russian Revolution, The Spanish Civil War, The Chinese 'Cultural Revolution', etc... and you will see example after example of the Communist/Socialists doing what they do once they have full power.
I say it should happen sooner than later because we still have the right to bear arms (didn't help the White Russians, btw), still have people who think clearly and have not died of old age yet, and we are not completely wiped out economically.
Study history in the last 100 years, Scott. This contagion has spread through out the world and now it is finally here.
Yep, its our turn to face the music.
'Buckle your seat belt, Dorothy, cuz kansas is going bye,bye.'
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 5:54 AM

...and IF we are to beat these commies (yes, Communists ... McCarthy was right - as pointed out by Ann Coulter), this is my 'Santas Wish List":
1) Empty the Journalist Academia. Ban them from teaching. All new Jouranlist Professors must take economic courses focused on the Fredrick Hayek model of Free markets.
2) Ban the vast majority of reporters from their Profession. They.are.done. Make 'em sell shoes.
3) Open the movie celebrities to the moral and political ridicule they deserve. They are actors and many know little about the professions of the people they represent (real or not real).
4) Invoke a constitutional amendment that bans the governemnt from 'giving to those in need' (except for natural disasters - and even then - maybe). Charity and Government is a contradiction in terms. An Oxymoron as money forcibly taken from some to give to others is not charity, it is extortion.
5) Have the Catholic Church declare Communism/Socialism to be a heresy. Charity is the principality of a Christian people and is an important function that they are being deprived of doing voluntarily. If it is not done freely and voluntarily, it is not charity, it is extortion.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 6:23 AM

...and IF we are to beat these commies...
Of the 5 suggestions you put forth, cond0011, only number 5 is non-coercive, though some will argue even that is coercive due to it being professed by the Catholic Church.
We are involved (all the world's peoples) in a war of ideas, and no amount of government enacted laws can lead to victory in a war of ideas. Banning this, that, or the other thing, by laws, is a futile endeavor.
If individuals heard from church pulpits; Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, etc., whatever; that Communism/Socialism, in all its various disguises, is a heresy, there would be a greater chance that Communism/Socialism's disguises would be removed. Government promulgated laws are the problem, no amount of them will set individuals free. The law enslaves us, rather than setting us free.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 7:10 AM

I completely agree about the misuse of "gay" for homosexuals. But I fail to see how potheads are any worse than habitual drunks - apart, that is, from the fact that marijuana is illegal and therefore one has to deal with shady characters to get it. But booze was illegal, too, for several years in the USA. Were drinkers scum, then?
I also see very little distinction apart from the obvious between junkies and those hooked on prescription drugs, of whom there are far too many. Once again, apart from the illegality.
Posted by: Fletcher Christian at January 2, 2014 7:27 AM

That's just my Santa's 'wishlist', John. Its not meant to be anything other than that.
When the economy dumps, I fear there may be coercion on a nationwide level that makes my wishlist look egalitarian.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 7:27 AM

@ Fletcher
Think what you may about marijuana ("just like booze") or not.
BUT: to do an end-run around the law by claiming that it is "for the ill" is despicable...AND cowardly.
With a spine and a touch of ethics, libertarians could come out openly, forthrightly, and simply say, "change the law."
So, if it's just to game the system, you are no different than anarchists , or those eeeeeeevil, greedy banksters you libertarians so love to whine about.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 2, 2014 7:59 AM

Libertarians are people that recognize the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Posted by: B Moe at January 2, 2014 8:08 AM

@ B Moe
libertarians are slave-to-ideology simpletons who,
when forced to deal with REALITY and real-world, complicated mattters,
scream, "PURITY" and "RuPaulEVOL!!1!!eleventy!"
In this way, libertarians are digging their own grave.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 2, 2014 8:13 AM

When the economy dumps, I fear there may be coercion on a nationwide level that makes my wishlist look egalitarian.
Cond0011 - Yes, and there is a distinct probability that the nationwide coercion you note will be called for the loudest (the government must do something!) by individuals of a conservative nature.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 8:23 AM

Scott M: The Left waged a Long March through the culture. We keep engaging in Short Retreats to the next "gated-community" that we hope will protect us from liberal domination.
From a historical perspective, the analogy is a little confused. The Long March c. 1934 was a retreat, not an advance.
Scott M: Call them communists, racists, sexist, traitors, etc.
Most liberals aren't any of those things.

Scott M: You don't gain respect by speaking in moderate language about the people that are setting fire to this country.
Not sure you gain respect by exaggerating differences, mangling definitions, smearing by association, or hyperventilating.
cond0011: 1) Empty the Journalist Academia. Ban them from teaching...
Spoken like a true statist of the political right.
Posted by: Zachriel at January 2, 2014 8:30 AM

"Cond0011 - Yes, and there is a distinct probability that the nationwide coercion you note will be called for the loudest (the government must do something!) by individuals of a conservative nature."
Conservative nature?
You are in for a biiiiig surprise, then, John.
(Here's a hint... we do not have the media megahone, nor the indoctrination centers)
"In Russia, the communists used to demonize their opponents long before the Revolution, which made it easier for them to physically eliminate the opposition later. As soon as they were in full control of the government, they began to demonize entire segments of the society, subcultures, and classes of people whom they deemed incapable of change.
Observe a visual example of communist demonization: an agitprop poster titled "Enemies of the 5-Year Plan," more broadly interpreted as "enemies of socialism" and, by extension, "enemies of the people."
A disparaging verse at the bottom describes who the enemies are:
The wealthy landowner
The kulak (a pejorative term for a wealthy farmer who "exploits" hired labor)
The drunk
The clergy (a Russian Orthodox Priest)
The bourgeois press (a non-compliant, independent journalist)
The capitalist (a banker, industrialist, merchant)
The Menshevik (a political opponent from a different communist faction)
The surviving remnants of the pre-revolutionary law enforcement and the military
The wealthy farmers, being the most numerous group and the most likely to resist the collectivization of agriculture, were subjected to the most vicious dehumanization reminiscent of the anti-Semitic propaganda in Nazi Germany.
Note this Lenin quote on another dehumanizing poster: "The kulaks are the most bestial, brutal and savage exploiters, who in the history of other countries have time and again restored the power of the landlords, tsars, priests and capitalists." (Full quote in Russian)
The demonization of the kulaks laid the groundwork for their subsequent annihilation. Facing a peasant rebellion, Lenin sent the following telegram to his henchmen: "Hang publicly (in full view of the people) no fewer than one hundred known kulaks, rich men, bloodsuckers. Make their names public. Take away all their grain. Make a list of the next group of hostages. Do it in such a fashion that for hundreds of miles around the people might see, tremble, realize, and scream: 'they are strangling, and will strangle to death, the bloodsucking kulaks'."
Other non-compliant citizens were dealt with in a similar fashion. "Statements from the few survivors, published in émigré newspapers the following year, describe Sevastopol, one of the towns that suffered most heavily under the repressions, as 'the city of the hanged.' 'From Nakhimovsky, all one could see was the hanging bodies of officers, soldiers, and civilians arrested in the streets. The town was dead, and the only people left alive were hiding in lofts or basements. All the walls, shop fronts, and telegraph poles were covered with posters calling for 'Death to the traitors.' They were hanging people for fun."
-- The Black Book of Communism:
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 8:36 AM

libertarians are slave-to-ideology simpletons...
Kauf Bach - Your statement displays a certain degree of simplemindedness.
Libertarians, at least those hoping to be a viable political party, desire to work within the democratic system here in the U.S. as it is currently, without aligning themselves with either Democrats or Republicans. This fact negates your contention that Libertarians are simpletons.
I think that the label of simpleton is more applicable to those individuals of both the Democrat and Republican parties who feel that if they can just get the right Democrat or Republican elected, things will somehow get better. Faith in either party, Democrat or Republican, is misplaced. Neither party is concerned with your, my, or any other individual's freedom. Republicans and Democrats both crave a consolidation of power. The Democrats crave it right this instance, the Republicans also crave the power, they're just a bit more circumspect in their consolidation.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 8:45 AM

"Spoken like a true statist of the political right. "
Ahhh... the fear of a Rightwing statist!
Now THAT is rich, 'Zachriel'.
Sorry, to couple the American 'Rightwing' with statism, is an oxymoron, and show me that you no nothing about the Right other than what your statist Liberal masters teach you.
Here is a chaser of us 'uptighty righties', Zacheriel:
(The 'rightwing is short for being called a Constitutional-Moderate. )
...and PS: thats a wish list, not a shoppinglist. Big difference. So go back to your Statist masters and enjoy your leftist Universal Healthcare.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 8:49 AM

cond0011: to couple the American 'Rightwing' with statism, is an oxymoron

That is simply not the case. There has long been an authoritarian right in the U.S., such as those who would impose their conservative morality on society. Your previous post advocating government coercion is clearly from a right wing perspective.

cond0011: www(Dot)youtube(Dot)com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY&

Changing well-established terminology is not an argument. The left-right political dichotomy, which refers to advocacy of egalitarianism versus traditional hierarchies, is orthogonal to the anarchist-statist dichotomy. There are statists on the left and on the right. There are anarchists on the left and on the right. And points in-between.
cond0011: thats a wish list ...
Yes, you *wish* to wuse the government to enforce a ban on teachers. Will no-one rid you of these troublesome teachers?
Posted by: Zachriel at January 2, 2014 9:10 AM

Words with no proofs.
Begone leftist Troll.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 9:13 AM

Cond0011, I fully understand that the mainstream media mouthpieces have a wide audience, one could almost say control, of what information is disseminated nationally through the mainstream media channels, and that these media channels do in fact demonize in much same manner as occurred under Communism in Russia.
I still say the loudest caterwauling for the government to do something, if, as we previously have discussed, things turn violent due to a complete drying up of government supplied freebies, conservatives will caterwaul the loudest. There is a reason why the Republican party has been referred to in the past as the "law and order" party.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 9:27 AM

"I still say the loudest caterwauling for the government to do something, if, as we previously have discussed, things turn violent due to a complete drying up of government supplied freebies, conservatives will caterwaul the loudest. "
Like the Teaparty Protests?
How about the Gun Rights Rallies?
Gee... your data about the craaaazy right-wingers is a bit thin.
Now if we talk about the Occupy Wall Street Crowd, or many many other examples of eftist protestors, then hey, we have soemthing to fear, here.
Sorry, John, your fears of the righties are empty of content.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 9:31 AM

I am a slave to the ideology of the sovereignty of the individual. If you can't handle that then you are just another statist/fascist petty tyrant who I have no interest in supporting.
Posted by: B Moe at January 2, 2014 9:31 AM

@ John Venlet
Your claim is contradictory and empty.
But I'm glad you're at least calm and eloquent with your words.
That some "work within the system" demonstrates nothing as a RULE.
Cato Instiitute and Reason.com are decent, too...but SO WHAT.
It doesn't say SQUAT about the flaming nitwits - and YES, simpletons relying on brainless, soothing bromides - who make up the vast majority of libertarians today.
Keep deluding yourself that staying intellectually PURE will lead you to success and influence...you're just digging your own grave.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 2, 2014 9:38 AM

Sorry, John, your fears of the righties are empty of content.
Cond0011 - I do not fear the righties, as you term them, what-so-ever, I simply will not delude myself that their political interests, their if they could just craft such and such a law things will get better for Americans, are focused at all on individuals being free to pursue life, liberty or happiness.
@Kauf Bach - You state, "That some "work within the system" demonstrates nothing as a RULE."
You are indeed correct when you state that, but, with the entire system broken, and the alleged decades of political "fixes" nothing but a jury-rigged mess, working within the current Repub/Demo jury-rigged system is accomplishing nothing to restore the original idea of America. The system is broke, and I wonder if even the fundamentals of America exist any longer in realm of the political.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 10:57 AM

@John Venlet:
"I simply will not delude myself that their political interests, their if they could just craft such and such a law things will get better for Americans, are focused at all on individuals being free to pursue life, liberty or happiness."
Again, speaking from ignorance. Your understanding of American History is a poor one. We are for less government. Far less governement than we have today.
If we stripped away All the social programs that we have today (vast majority came from the liberal and Democrats. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Universal Health Care were all passed by Democrat Presidents with majorities in both the house and senate), we would have a Republican form of government (FAR far less government).
Wanna see the result of leftist/Democrat largess?
Here you are:
John, though you write well, your ignorance is obvious.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 11:23 AM

We are for less government. Far less government than we have today.
Well, cond0011, if my understanding of American History is poor, and I speak from obvious ignorance, why are we in complete agreement with your statement above?
Our difference lies, I think, in having any faith in this less government coming about from either the political left or the political right as it currently exists in America. I would not trade with either group.
Speaking for myself, I do not see this result (less government) as possibly being forthcoming.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 11:51 AM

We are in dissagreement because the massive increase of governement came fro the leftist/Democrats: NOT the Republicans.
Your lack of faith in the Republicans/Conservatives/Right-Wing. (what they once were) is unfounded. That is where we disagree.
Though I have handed in my 'Republican' and 'Conservative' cards, I still hail from the 'right-wing' conservative side in regards to political categories as none of them really speak for me.
The essence of the Right-wingers are ... really ... constitutional moderates (as stated very well in the 4 types of governments video). If you disagree, I would like to see your proofs as the vast majority of the government budget goes to programs that were created by the democrats - NOT the Republicans.
Republicans are big Statists? Nope!
Check you history.
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 12:09 PM

I went through the same liberal schools as everyone else, but I didn't just sit on my rear and take it. In fact, most of what I saw and learned as a child was from TV, during the Vietnam War and Nixon's presidency. But because I learned, I didn't wait for some teacher or authority to chew it up, digest it, and spit it at me in small doses, it caused me to be conservative. As soon I my brother showed me conservative sources in libraries I learned more. With the internet, there is no excuse for being ignorant. Our side has just switched from vegging out in front of Dan Rather to vegging out in front of Fox News. That way lies failure.
This argument, we can't win because the media is against us, is the same lazy argument poor people make that they can't improve because Warren Buffet has all the money. It's baloney. Wherever you are and whatever your circumstances, you can use resources to improve, your mind and your bank balance, if you stop making excuses. "Once I buy beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets I can only pay my rent if I steal from my neighbor." If your efforts begin with all of the "but I..." and "someday if..." you aren't working on the problem you are nestling in the failure.
I'm exhorting people to change from the Sunday School Model, where everybody that already believes, gets up and congregates at church on Sunday, switch to the Apologetics Model. Study your subject, not so you and the preacher can feel familiar and comfortable around each other. But, study to know what you believe, why you believe, and to have an answer you can share with those that don't believe or don't know what to believe. STOP HIDING YOUR LIGHT UNDER A BASKET, to be brought out only every other November.
Nothing makes me as depressed about the future as listening to most of the people that call in to conservative talk radio. "Rush, I've listened to you for 18 years, can you tell my sister why we shouldn't raise taxes in a recession?" That caller, which is most callers, but not all, is exactly the person that doesn't know jack about what she claims is her own beliefs. She, like most conservatives, have conservative media in their life as familiar, if not comfortable background noise. Then when it's time to pick POTUS they search for their own brand of Messiah and are disappointed either in November or in the first term, if their guy wins. They aren't thinking for themselves, they are turning to "the experts" to find the food, chew it up, digest it, and spit it at them." These voters learn nothing from their experience except "I wish they would all just get along."
The politics is putrid because too many citizens are lazy and dense from their own habits. You can change anytime, but you can't stay the same and change. Stop doing what isn't working. Stop hiding, start fighting. It will at least make you feel less like a victim.
Posted by: Scott M at January 2, 2014 12:16 PM

Cond0011 - C'mon, now, are you seriously attempting to tell me that the Republican party has never championed statist programs, or promoted laws which impinge on Americans' rights?
Rather than disparaging my historical knowledge, maybe you should be researching the statist policies and freedom impinging laws which the Republican party has championed in the past and into today.
Are there any Republicans consistently championing reductions in government today? One or two may mouth platitudes to reductions in government, but in practice, well, look where we are today and the vote counts in the halls of congress, especially over the past two decades.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 2, 2014 12:35 PM

"C'mon, now, are you seriously attempting to tell me that the Republican party has never championed statist programs, or promoted laws which impinge on Americans' rights?"
Yes, Basically.
Sorry man. ;)
Posted by: cond0011 at January 2, 2014 12:37 PM

"Constitutional moderate"
Posted by: B Moe at January 2, 2014 12:51 PM

Man, this whole thread has turned into a pretty good meta-narrative of what Scott M brought up in the first place.
All I see in this "discussion" is a bunch of little kids yelling "My dog's bigger than your dog!" at each other (and the ever-devastating riposte "Oh YEAH?!?!",) while conveniently ignoring that they personally DON'T confront the liberal idiocy they're treated to while waiting in grocery lines, at the bank, the PO, etc.
Which is all that Scott M has been asking you to do for the last couple of years in these threads.
I dunno; maybe you live somewhere without lefties. I 'spose that's possible, although difficult to imagine. If that IS the kind of place you live, then start challenging the kind of "Did you see that thing on TV?" kinda crap that seems unavoidable these days. Get up on your hind legs in public, put a big smile on your face, and Tell The Truth.
Hey, did you hear about all those Global Warming guys getting iced in for a week in Antarctica? Ain't that a hoot?
Posted by: Rob De Witt at January 2, 2014 12:51 PM

Just read the Libertarian comments. Like I said, they energy is directed toward Republicans, even though conservatives see a life or death struggle against the Republicans as necessary to begin making improvements. Yet, the commielibs are only assumed to be included in Libertarian comments, even as they are the most powerful force pushing the country toward undisguised socialism, or worse.
This is what most supports my view that Libertarians are not honest political actors but ducking responsibility by just being against anything, and 'accidentally' undermining the only opposition to the commielib party.
Libertarian: There is no difference between the parties, and here are my 809 reasons to HATE the GOP. Democrats, yeah they are bad too. Libertarians hate their big brother the Republican Party and only squeak against the socialist party. That's not an accident.
Posted by: Scott M at January 2, 2014 1:00 PM

@ Scott M
Add to that description libertarians being LUCY (with the football)
constantly sending the "trust me" siren call to CHARLIE BROWN (Conservatives),
only to pull the ball (read: VOTE) away at the last minute, with the claim, "but he was a flawed candidate!" or "both sides are evil!"
libertarians need to be seen and treated as DEM OPERATIVES, until such time as they show consistent, reliable cooperation.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 2, 2014 1:06 PM

It's not an accident that it's the Libertarians telling people opposed to the commielib future to stop fighting or you might as well go home, you've already lost. It's not an accident that such a prescription helps the commielibs.
Libertarian positions, in most Libertarians, are primarily useful in making the individual Libertarian feel superior, even as they stay out of the political boxing ring. Maybe that's it's only purpose, to justify not getting involved. The practical help to the commielibs may only be the side-effect. The strengthening of commielibs isn't important enough to the Libertarians for them to adjust their efforts. The 2 big goals are hurt the majority in the Party, the Libertarians would like to control, and announce they wouldn't have supported whatever is failing now.
Notice how few positive accomplishments they seek for themselves, beside pot. Notice how little anger there is against any Libertarians in office, even though lack of accomplishment is supposed to be the reason for their red-hot rage at Republicans. Libertarians are the political equivalent of the Cafe' Commentariat. It's about justifying feeling, not doing anything.
Posted by: Scott M at January 2, 2014 1:08 PM

Here's a clue for you: just because someone doesn't blindly goose step to one party or another doesn't mean they aren't in the fight.
I do love the irony of someone who has no idea who I am declaring that I am ducking responsibility because of my arrogance.
I ridiculed the Democrats when I heard them first use that "don't fall in love just fall in line" horse shit and it sounds no better from a conservative.
Posted by: b moe at January 2, 2014 5:07 PM

Left Mob and Right Mob dancing around the cannibal pot singing about "we" this, "us" that. There are no individual people any more, just millions of appendages following directions without the slightest idea of what life is. The fast approaching burn off will be glorious.
Posted by: ghostsniper at January 2, 2014 5:57 PM

Kauf Buch:
BTW and just for the record, I'm a Brit not American. My fight is not your fight, and I neither can nor should be able to influence American politics - although we have a similar fight on our hands over here.
My personal position on drugs is very simple indeed. Legalise everything. Prohibition of some drugs has not led to less consumption of them. Instead, it has led to the consumption of more - and of inferior quality and leading to much more disease to boot. As well as an escalating tide of violence and criminality, petty and otherwise. We should all have learned from the American Prohibition experience; we have not.
Yes, if drugs are legalised then some people will die as a result; more, for a while, than if we keep going as we are. Too bad. I think that's better than inner cities being warzones and large numbers of reasonably decent people being mugged and/or burgled.
There is another way. Crack down HARD. Drug dealers summarily executed and all their possessions siezed. Drug smugglers ditto. Anyone found to be laundering drug money, ditto. And anyone found in possession of illegal drugs in consumption amounts - cold turkey withdrawal, in jail, with no support. And a long sentence in unpleasant conditions, with hard labour included, after that.
The middle way we are trying to make work, won't work.
As for the banksters: It's perfectly obvious that any civilised country needs a banking system. But what we certainly do not need is the vast apparatus of trading in ever-more-rarefied abstract instruments, whose sole purpose is to extract value from the real economy (that of people who make things and provide services people actually want) and shovel it into the back pockets of the banksters.
One simple solution to this might be to make trading in derivatives, of any sort, illegal. And while we are at it, also make contracts that include profit or sales bonuses illegal in the banking industry.
It won't happen. This country, for a while, got rid of the Old Etonian/Harrovian mafia that was in power, because so many of them got themselves killed in WWI. But now - the bastards are back. Including our Prime Minister and Chancellor. And in no circumstances will they let their old-school-tie chums in the City lose any at all of their obscenely large fortunes.
Unless, that is, things get enough worse that lamp-posts in various cities start acquiring new, and rather repellent, decorations.
Posted by: Fletcher Christian at January 2, 2014 7:52 PM

Libertarianism, for those that sincerely believe in it, not just adopt it to spit at conservatives, is nearly identical to the immoral pacifism that was more common before Sept 11. It's an ideololgy the believer doesn't even bother to hope to implement. It's an all-purpose, post-hoc, formula for avoiding the real world. If you ask them what would you do about x, their response usually goes back before the earth cooled and they spin out a fantasy of how they would remake the world so the realities of current life would never intrude on their fantasy.
Like when I challenged pacifists about what would you do NOW that Sept 11 happened? Their answer was always of the flavor of "well, if I was in charge we would never have had a Sept 11." Notice they don't answer the question that was asked and they assume intervention before the act.
For all the evil the Libertarians (Lt) find in both parties, notice how very small are their efforts, except on pot. They talk as if they are opposed by 2 sets of pure, or nearly pure evil. But, look at how little they organize, except for pot. Look at how few people they elect. They assure us we must not remake the GOP, but abandon it because it's made promises to us about smaller govt but not delivered. Has the accumulated efforts of fellow Lts achieved more? No. Do they have contempt for the Lt Party and its members? No. Their efforts are about envy or revenge against the senior relative. Think of the moody teenager that has hatred for their parent but not a care for the real low-lifes in town that are much worse, no matter how short of perfection dear old dad has become.
Lts argue the way to future victory is to abandon social issues and concentrate on economic and liberty issues. If that was a sure formula for success wouldn't that demand the Lt Party and members need to do everything possible to make their views available? Wouldn't their views be advanced rapidly? Wouldn't the Lts be surging and not lounging in the polls and elections? It doesn't cost a dime to vote for anyone on the ballot. No, Lt is seen by many people as an un-serious option. Lt is so vague and undefined every person with a complain can imagine they are Lt, and because it's never implemented, and seldom makes contact with flesh and bone humans it's got no record and the Lt individuals never are in conflict with each other as is routinely the case with members of the 2 big Parties. They share aspects with Anarchists, not the former Communists that are pretending to favor no govt, but the fantasists that imagine a world of people just like them all living without any govt.
Don't take advice from Libertarians unless you want to duplicate their stellar record of not winning much. Voters aren't rushing to Libertarians. The Libertarians, rather than fighting for their beliefs want Republicans to just change and advance the Lt agenda for them. They have a military agenda much too close to the commielib disarmament agenda for my taste.
Posted by: Scott M at January 3, 2014 1:04 AM

Just before I read this article, I was doing the three-hour wait at the DMV (we pay them to work, so they make us wait for it, because there are no consequences for crappy customer service). A couple of mooks behind me were opining on how in lots of other countries, health care is free cuz the government pays for it. And Obamacare is fubar cuz you still hafta pay, or no insurance and a tax penalty to boot. And that we don't have the government pay for health care in this country cuz that's the American way, and that 's a good thing, cuz if you work hard you can keep your money. Oh yeah, and that dude that ran with Palin was going to make everyone work till they're 72, so they couldn't enjoy any retirement before they're dead. LIV's, basically.
Geez. I almost turned around to butt in and say that the government doesn't have any money, it's your friends, neighbors, and countrymen that now hafta pay your doctor bills along with their own.
Discretion, valor, etc. Since I was outnumbered about 200-1 (trust me on this), no matter how covered in the soft velvet of polite and genteel speech and a twinkling smile, everybody in the joint would instantly know that I was making a solo attack behind enemy lines. If I'd been sitting next to them it might have not been seen as quite so aggressive as the turn-around butt-in would have been.
Then I came back to the office and read this article, and thought maybe I shoulda anyway.
Posted by: John A. Fleming at January 3, 2014 1:42 AM

I"m usually very non-political, I've got a full life of interesting things to do and I get very annoyed when I have to start doing non-productive activities to make up for other people's misbehavior and unwillingness to do their duties with honor.
We've been living a charmed life since 1945. The wolf is back at the door, and we've almost forgotten that defending your family, friends, and neighbors against the barbarians and criminals is an ever-present fact of life. Death is always close at hand, so we hafta love and work fast and hard. And a person ought not to have expectations, but instead determination.
So along with regular firearm practice, I have had the annoying displeasure of attending political events. I was recently at an Ann Coulter (!) event (wives drag their husbands to these sorts of things). My big takeaway after an hour or two of cogitating, was Coulter telling us that yes, we have a low-down dirty-dog spouse who has cheated on us every chance they get, and will go right on cheating on us and beating us up, and we had best just stick with them, cuz we don't have any better choices. (She was decrying the talk in the Tea Parties of primarying those "Constitutional moderates" (see above comments), as a means of getting the Republicans to take the Tea Parties seriously.) I don't think that skinny chick with the charming smile and prosecutor's steel voice intended that, but I was steaming mad by the time I got home. The hell you say!
If our Representatives don't fear the voters, it's game over man. Milton Friedman had it right, we want the wrong guy to be forced to do the right thing for all of us. When you're a battered spouse, you don't come crawling on your belly begging forgiveness. You fight! If you run away, it's cuz you're preparing to fight another day, another way, on your terms and to your advantage.
Posted by: John A Fleming at January 3, 2014 2:28 AM

@ John Fleming
That's EXACTLY the sort of scenario in which SPEAKING UP! is most needed. Daily. Ho hum. AND A CONSTANT DRIP DRIP DRIP of "Road To Serfdom" mentality everywhere, to be countered.
Be proud you thought of it afterwards this time. Just keep it in the back of your mind, and the next opportunity will lay itself before your feet in no time....then, LET LOOSE!
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 3, 2014 2:56 AM

Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever you what, Liberty is the freedom to do what you know is right.
Posted by: edaddy at January 3, 2014 6:17 AM

Some of you seem to confuse the Libertarian Party with someone who follows a general libertarian philosophy. They are very different things, I am a pretty hard core libertarian philosophically, but don't support the party at all, as you say, they are far too isolationist and pacifist for my taste. That is a party platform that is not dictated by the philosophy itself.
My political position is that of the founders: all power derives from the individual. Not the Party, not the government, not the King.
The power of government should be very limited and very diffused, centralized power is the greatest evil known to man, regardless of the party wielding it.
When the Republicans start recognizing that, they will get my vote.
Posted by: B Moe at January 3, 2014 7:37 AM

Well said, B Moe, though I rather doubt it will clear up the confusion.
Posted by: John Venlet at January 3, 2014 8:34 AM

"I went through the same liberal schools as everyone else, but I didn't just sit on my rear and take it. "
Neither did I, ScottM, and I was Omega Wolf due to the stands I made in High School - AND I considered myself a Democrat at that time, too. But I am continually finding flawed foundational perspectives within that need digging up and replaced. A major building block that was recently rooted out was how much I relied on the media for truth and how they subtlety guide the reader in the direction they want them to go (permanent h/t to Meryl Yourish for exposing THAT one to me).
Another is one I am working on now.
"This argument, we can't win because the media is against us, is the same lazy argument poor people make that they can't improve because Warren Buffet has all the money."
I'm not saying 'we can't win', I'm saying that we are 'screwed' with the set up that we have right now. Too many people - especially our fiscally responsible allies - rely on that Socialist golden teat (read: Social Security. No, its not yours - and yes it still is a tax, involuntarily taken from everyone who actually works - even though you put into it your whole life. Its a ponzi scheme meant to explode the country at a time best suited for those who first derived it in their grasp for totalitarian power over our free country). As long as you expect a return on that 'investment', you are compromised - and that means a whole lot of us 'conservatives' are compromised.
The leftists are laughing at us conservatives as they hold all the cards. We are playing their grifter games and we are the mark - and many of us don't know it. You cannot selectively get rid of social programs as each of them all are muddied by the fact that they really ARE A HANDOUT.
Its all or nothing. Social Security, Medicare-Medicaid, Foodstamps... all of it... is corrupted by the disorder that is socialism. I am in despair over the fact that we have conservatives defending Social Security ... or Medicare ... or building a Football dome because its for the people ...and the leftists are laughing their asses off because we are ALL playing a rigged game (we want to make cuts - but not on the freebies WE want)
Thus do I say the system as we know it will fall with a resounding crash - due to our own rendition of 'the tragedy of the commons'.
Face it Scott... its gonna happen... because almost everyone - is now a junky who has sold his soul to socialist drug dealers and they laugh their asses off with their smug little faces and know most of us conservatives are a bunch of hypocrites.
So I say... Faster... drive this bus ... faster. If the conservatives do not have the balls to end ALL entitlements and give the responsibility back to the individual adult in the form of the christian obligation known as charity - which must be given freely otherwise it is not charity, but extortion, then I say ... faster.
Thus I am a Tea Party member that says 'Stop the spending'.
Thus am I an Iconoclast that says 'Socialism/Communism is a Heresy' and all government handouts is an abomination to our Christian Faith and Christian nation.
Thus am I a conservative who says 'Drive Faster to that cliff! The faster, the better! Time to face the horror because of our own desires for our own pet handouts.'
Then... and only then, will this madness end.
Me lazy, ScottM? You don't know me very well, do you? :)
Posted by: Cond0011 at January 3, 2014 9:27 AM

The essential reason that political arguments among conservatives or libertarians do not result in improved understandings (as we see here) apparently is not understood. It is universal suffrage.
As my Tocquevillian bible explains it universal suffrage is the single most destructive element possible in democracy and in fact is nothing less than a revolutionary instrument.
Universal suffrage not only changes the size and shape of government we suffer, but everything which it touches--like education. And it will touch everything. As Orwell might have said, they care even more about what you think than what you say. And we have gradually lost ground in the ability to think.
There is no solution, or even advance, to be made in government within the system of universal suffrage. The left understands, intellectually or instinctively, that universal suffrage is a revolutionary system for the special few to shape and control the mob. Conservatives labor under the expectation that the mob can be educated.
This self-abasement will not change until universal suffrage is ended, or democracy is.
Posted by: james wilson at January 3, 2014 9:37 AM

Nice overview of Libertrians, Scott.
Sums it up pretty nicely.
Posted by: Cond0011 at January 3, 2014 10:07 AM

B Moe - You're a humdinger when it comes to throwing out those soothing, worthless bromides...but try again next time after you apply your precious little thoughts ("the lesser of 2 evils is still eeeevil...SQUAWK!") to reality for a few years.
Nice try - that "founding fathers as libertarian" SCHTICK. YOU REALLY HAD ME LAUGHING AT THAT ONE!!!
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 3, 2014 10:35 AM

james wilson: The left understands, intellectually or instinctively, that universal suffrage is a revolutionary system for the special few to shape and control the mob.

Perhaps you shouldn't vote then.
Posted by: Zachriel at January 3, 2014 11:02 AM

I expect this will be my last entry in this thread, just so I don't slide into personal insult or hog the thread. But I appreciate everyone for their items, even if I vehemently disagree with your point of view. Mostly I read these entries without even looking at the names, because to me it's all about the ideas, not team or social dynamics. Thank you for the kind support Joan, and Rob, and Kauf, and GVL for noticing my semi-grammatical spew.
"It", most definitely is not over. We can still save this country. The Left has showed us the way. They were not in control of everything when they started their Long March through the institutions. They were once outsiders and they worked long and hard and pervasively to take over as much as they now have. But, they were aided greatly by our natural aversion to conflict and by appealing to our more generous spirit. Many of us were taught it's selfish to push too hard for what you want. The things that make our groups, neighborhoods, ans states attractive and functional are what makes it EASIER for The Left to infiltrate, control, and chase us out to our next 'gated-community' until The Leftists show up there. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Stop constantly monitoring The Media for how they feel about us. Stop letting social standing/comfort determine your political actions. We are engaged in a political contest. The fairest outcome can only happen if we fight as hard for our view and they fight for their view. It's been a devastating and self-defeating tendency among the nicest people on our side to immediately accept the compromise position between our view and the view of The Left. It's self-defeating because the consequence of this 'willing to compromise' position isn't that we arrive at the compromise position, but we arrive at a position somewhere between the compromise and The Leftists dream outcome. The Left, when they see so many on our side immediately and repeatedly rush to the 50-yard line, push to move the ball halfway, or more, between the 50 and the touchdown they want. If The Left thinks it can get more, just before both sides agree on the compromise, they will make an outrageous demand at the last minute that threatens to blow up the compromise. Our nice people, to avoid a fight, then agree to meet them halfway, which is now closer to 75% of The Left's desired outcome.
We must recognize that this version of being nice, and this version of tuning-out until the last minute, this version of an uninformed demand for both sides to just get along is playing into the hands of The Left. And helping to fuel the march toward Leftist desires are many Libertarians in our ranks saying "all is lost", "there is no hope", "nothing to do now but wait for the apocalypse." Any excuse that removes our push back, our fight for our dream position on a topic is helping The Left. Whether any, all, or some Libertarians agree or want to face that, it has the same effect. The Left certainly isn't sitting around waiting for the asteroid to hit.
For conservatives, I ask only that you offer resistance, however you can, but do it every day. Listen to liberal media and you will see they are not daunting debaters, they are drones, like Mark Levin calls them. They typically have one or two talking points and a religious devotion to saying those 2 things and then a reflex to call you a name. Big deal, you shouldn't care about their opinion anyway. You should simply publicly push for your position, so the undercovers conservatives see they aren't alone. We outnumber The Left about two-to-one, but we hide to avoid conflict.
I mentioned earlier I think the model to follow, besides copy-cat what The Left did to take over, is to switch from just learning what our positions are (I called that The Sunday School Model) should be the understand, argue, explain our positions everywhere you go. I call that the Apologetics/Evangalism Model. It's not enough, continuing the analogy, just save your own soul, but you must spread the word. Learn the arguments for/against our positions so you can defend our side and advance our side. Inoculate yourself and others by debunking Leftist points before the Leftist make them.
Just step a little outside your comfort zone and you will see it's easy to win and the world doesn't swallow you up. The monster is scary because you haven't punched it in the nose and lived. You've heard far too many scare stories that serve to paint The Left as supermen, in footy pajamas, inside impenetrable castles.
Posted by: Scott M at January 3, 2014 3:22 PM

BRAVO, Scott M.
I do what you suggest on almost every visit to a grocery store...whenever I'm behind someone pay by EBT - and they have a boatload of either junk food or luxury items in their cart...
...I *love* to shout out loud, in a cheerful voice, "MY! ALL THAT YOU CAN BUY WITH WELFARE MONEY THESE DAYS!"
It NEVER ceases to wake up about 5 people in line...and often the cashier, too.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 4, 2014 4:05 AM

I never said the founding fathers were libertarians, just that they held similar values.
The founding fathers were liberals, before idiots like you forgot what that word means.
Posted by: B Moe at January 4, 2014 6:02 AM

I live in Massachusetts and I have three Impeach Obama signs on my car--two are the size of bumper stickers and one is about two by two feet.
I get a lot of positive reactions. People especially love the huge sign.
Lots of people give me the thumbs up, sometimes they honk and wave and get very excited, sometimes they roll down the window and say something.
When they talk to me, people often seem really grateful to see that someone shares their view.
All of which is to say, I heartily agree with Scott's sentiment. Speak up! It might help. At a minimum, it helps people feel less lonely. And maybe less afraid.
Posted by: Sarah Rolph at January 4, 2014 6:35 AM

This is a crucial thing to understand, and it's at the root of why most limited-government "libertarians" have no choice but to accept the very premises every commie on the planet uses, and ultimately, when pushed to it, will soon enough start arguing just like a commie.
It's inevitable.
The root of the problem is laziness and dishonesty, both a product of two of the basest human emotions/motivations: fear and greed. To state it another way: humanity involves, most simply, the conscious and principled discipline and control of fear and greed, which one has no choice but to experience as a higher biological organism.
A good way to think about how the non-human homo sapiens respond to fear and greed is that they seek to hoard profits and spread losses. The chief motivation is laziness and chief tool to satisfy all is dishonesty. The interesting thing about dishonesty -- self, other directed, and institutionalized -- is that the better one is at it (the more dishonest) the less detectable and more powerful it is.
What's interesting about laziness is how hard people work at not producing tradeable values. Consider a bum on the exit ramp day in, day out. I've seen some of them work their asses off at begging in the hot, cold, and rainy for years on end. How much easier it would be to work at a job?
It's the labor theory of value. The lazy look to a world where raw physical activity, disconnected from any other requirements, is of paramount value.
To look at it in its plainest form, there are those advocating that some fears are just too great not to force others to pay for general anesthesia, and the argument turns on which anesthesia and in what dosage is most "efficient" and "useful." Hey, maybe we can "privatize" the production and delivery of it, which still doesn't address the root laziness, dishonesty, individual responsibility or accountability.
Then there are those, "the nouveaux ancaps," who rightfully understand that you can't hold consistently to individualist principle and advocate any degree of state coercion, but have failed to understand that the state is an effect of a deeper problem (as outlined above). They think that you have to win friends and influence people by trying to explain that life would be so much better without the state.
But you can't truly understand anarchism until you accept that it doesn't matter what society "would be like" without the state. It's not the issue. The issue is that nobody has any right to chain me to their fears or satisfy their greed at my involuntary expense and anyone who thinks otherwise, even just a little tiny bit can just go fuck right off and there's simply no kind way to put that.
Posted by: ghostsniper at January 4, 2014 7:05 AM

Kauf Buch (January 4, 2014 @ 4:05 a.m.):
Bravo to you! However, did you ever get punched in the nose ?!? I wish I had your courage.
Posted by: Linda P at January 4, 2014 8:05 AM

Kauf Buch (January 4, 2014 @ 4:05 a.m.):
Bravo to you! However, did you ever get punched in the nose ?!? I wish I had your courage.
Posted by: Linda P at January 4, 2014 8:06 AM

@ Linda P
Often, people in line will smile/smirk.
A few times, cashiers have said to me in hushed breaths (lest their jobs be threatened), "you ought to SEE what those folks buy, especially when steak and lobster is on special!".
ONLY ONCE did my wife get a semi-negative reaction from one of the societal parasites, who said to her, "what do you mean?!"
IT'S WORTH IT. NOT for the "satisfaction" of pissing people off...
...but of BREAKING DOWN THE BARRIERS OF SILENCE to which people have become all too accustomed WHILE PAYING TO ENABLE THIS PESTILENCE.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 4, 2014 1:08 PM

Speak Truth to Power! !!!!
Posted by: b moe at January 4, 2014 3:25 PM

You can always pretend to be speaking on your cellphone, if it helps you break the ice.
If a liberal wants to get into it with you, try this: ask them questions. It forces them to remember and defend. "So, would you increase the minimum wage even if it caused a business to install more machines or fire people?" The more you ask them questions the more work they have to do. When you aren't sure what question to ask, ask them "how do you know that?" Force them to do all the work. They say things that only hint they have a wealth of info to back things up. They don't often know more than a sentence or two.
Would support women in the military IF it made the military less effective?
Would you close coal power plants IF it creates blackouts or high electric bills.
Will you support solar electricity IF it causes more water shortages out west?
Will you support wind power If it kills endangered birds?
Don't let them change to talking about the topics above, force them to stay on the "IF it hurts xyz will you change your mind."
Posted by: Scott M at January 4, 2014 7:20 PM

Kauf Buch, and Scott M. Republicans need to be treated like the die hard big government communists they are. There is no difference between a democrat and a republican, they just like the state for different reasons.
Posted by: Todd at January 5, 2014 6:19 PM

*Thanks* (/s), Todd. Good to SEE the mental poverty of today's 'libertarians' in your words so clearly.
Posted by: Kauf Buch at January 6, 2014 12:50 AM

Posted by gerardvanderleun at January 9, 2014 4:03 PM
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"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." -- Karl Popper N.B.: Comments are moderated and may not appear immediately. Comments that exceed the obscenity or stupidity limits will be either edited or expunged.

It is the fatal paradox of democracy, the freedom loving individual is always going to be out-numbered by the statist loving mob, and the easiest and most effective way to fight a mob is to form one of your own.

The trick is assembling an effective mob while still allowing members their own identity.

Posted by: B Moe at January 10, 2014 6:15 AM

Socialism is Stealing.

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Posted by: parajumpers jacka rea at January 30, 2014 2:57 AM