The Top 40

This election like the 10-20 before it was about bread crumbs.

Votists scrapping over measly, moldy crumbs, like rancid street urchins with filthy claws.

Intellectual poverty prevents them from understanding the whole loaf is poisoned, they see only their wretched childish whims.

Laziness is at the base of it all.

Moving ahead in a better direction is good enough for now.
With Boehner and McConnell leading all we need worry about are Boehner and McConnell, their water-carriers, and Obama's unchallenged executive orders.
Fright, flight, or fight. Thank God and WoMan that the voters are pissed off. There is no rest until we're supporting six feet of soil above.

Sure. And now, regarding abortion: How about the cases where the pregnancy is a risk to the life or health of the mother, and/or when the foetus is so severely defective that it will live for minutes to an hour or two outside the womb when delivered? Such as, for example, a recent case of an Irish woman who was forced by Irish law (in other words, by the Catholic Church in its most brutal mode) to carry to term an anencephalic foetus. For those who don't know; that means that the foetus had no brain.

Ian, the "risk to the *health* of the mother" exception is NARAL's bogus attempt to continue abortion for any reason at any time. They use a defition of health that any excuse is good enough to kill a baby. Then people pretend that birth defects and actual risk of maternal death explain more than a fraction of a fraction of current abortions.

By your logic we ought to be allowed to kill a troublesome neighbor because more of them are actually dangerous to other neighbors than cases like you reference. The vast number of abortions in this country are to poor mothers to prevent inconvenience.

How do I know "the health of the mother" exception is a trick, not a genuine motivation? The same people that claim we must preserve abortion in cases like you mention will not support an end to abortion if only the mother's life were threatened. They know if that's the rule there will be almost no abortions. And by all means these people demand that the human sacrifice continue.

The essential questions are: Do all fetuses have any rights? If yes, what are they, and what is the basis for your opinion/judgement? If no, what is the basis for your opinion/judgement?
What defines the lifeform, the entity called a fetus. Given Ian's description of a fetus with no brain, does that life have any rights?

Wrestle all you want with those fundamentals; the society with all its cultural norms and abnorms will make the legally forcible decisions. If you don't like the decisions, change the society to your liking.

In this world of laughter and sorrow, do the best you can.

Err on the side of life. We can survive whatever else.

This is in its essence true; there is no turning point here, no changing the path. Just a slowing.

Interesting side street this thread turned. Abortion is only one issue affected by the mindset, the morals and values in place now. The country, the people and the leaders, must shift to a set of values that will deal with such as capital punishment, abortion, religious tolerance. We have to regress on a lot of things, back to a time and set of values where there wasn't even a question of "what should we do?"

Ian Campbell: Our baby was born without a functioning brain. Prenatal hydrocephalus smashed her brain into a layer 1 mm thick lining the interior of her skull.

We were advised to abort her several times: "Other children could use her organs." Our response: "We're not going to kill our baby. End of discussion."

On the day of her birth, we were told "She won't live more than a minute." My response: "Yeah? Well, she's going to get her full sixty full fucking seconds, then, Doc."

That night, as she was implanted with a cerebral shunt, her doctor showed me her cranial CT scan. Her head was entirely filled with fluid. He told me "I've seen these cases many times. They never end well."

That night, our priest came and baptized her, the confirmed her. She became a Christian and her sould was ready for Heaven.

The next day, the hospital chaplain came and administered the Sacrament to me in her room. Later, as I bent over her tiny body, a crumb of the Lord's Body that had gotten into my beard fell onto her forehead. I don't know where it went.

That night, a cranial CT scan showed that a brain had somehow appeared in her head. She was taken off the vent. She began IV feeding.

She's almost two years old today: a big, pink, healthy White baby. Gosh, I sure am glad we didn't execute her in the womb for the crime of being less than perfect.

A brain does not make a human being. A human being is that which is born of woman -- an individual human life. And all human life is sacred, with or without legs, hands, eyes, or brain.

And every life is meaningful -- even a life no longer than a minute or two. We have no way of knowing what role even the briefest life plays in the Big Picture. We have no right to decide who is worthy of life and who is not. The path of strict utilitarianism leads straight to the concentration camp gate -- or its modern form, the abortion clinic. If we take the path you suggest, we will end up with Peter Singer or someone like him on the railroad platform separating the Useful from the Lebensunwertesleben. Is that really where we as a civilization want to go?

Our daughter is, frankly, a mess. She can't see or eat normally. She may never walk, or talk, or even sit up. But she's alive, she can laugh, and she can love, and that's enough. Even with a malformed brain my kid is 10x as great as any other baby. That's just the way we are.

I won't soft-soap you. It's hard, damned hard, to care for a severely disabled child -- but it is our duty and we are by God going to do it. We have never regretted our decision to keep her and we never will.

Shibes: Thank you for sharing with us. You and your family are living under God's Grace.

I almost died this time last year but the power of prayer, good doctors (God-sent, natch) and a strong family got me through.

People do not see or will not acknowledge the power of prayer and the Holy Spirit. Having God in one's life makes a big difference — the difference between living and merely existing.

The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure.
1 Cor 10:13

All this, uh, God business is an Inside Job. Unfortunately many folks are hollow inside.

You're on my prayer list.

Here is the crossing of Church-State line and one's own conscience.

Abortion isn't mentioned in the Constitution because it was legal at that time. Legal in the term of not prohibited. In 1910, doctors got Congress to have it outlawed because others were making money that they weren't. Once banned, doctors proceeded to routinely perform them in hospitals and their offices and D&C's. So much for morality.

Churches should be telling their parishioners what to do and not to do. As for those that do not belong, that church doesn't have much to say about their personal habits. Those individuals have to live with their conscience. Some people dare kinda short on one and you'll not instill one in them.

I don't believe in abortion; then again I can't get pregnant.

If there is a maker, you will stand and answer for your actions. If there isn't, the whole argument is a fart in the wind.

It is going to be difficult to make a people who do not believe in sin to repent of sin. All the sins that used to publicly shame us as a people and inspire us onto doing better, even if it meant civil war, are hidden from view, sanitized by euphemism, legalization, and the all pervasive 'tolerance'. People don't not believe in God, they just have many gods they believe in, all hand crafted and tailored by how they interpret the sacred scriptures.
We have a Christian marketplace of many Jesuses (Jesi?) and many gods, all of them competing with each other for followers. And not a one of us wants to be perceived as being 'intolerant'.

My other half is Jewish. She relates a time in childhood when for some reason one of the neighbor kids took offense over something or other and told her that she was going to go to Hell. A wasted threat since Jews don't believe in that concept.

Which brings one to repent for sins. You're right Mom, tough thing to get someone to do is that isn't a concept. (I'm assuming we're not talking true evil, about a Stalin, Hitler or Obama here)

Shibes, thank you for sharing your daughter's story again. Reading it the first time helped to strengthen my conviction that it is right to raise my family in the Church, and it is often in my mind when I think of the importance of Communion.

I'm very glad to see that your daughter is still with you.

The constitution doesn't mention abortion because they didn't believe it was NECESSARY to mention that killing babies was wrong and illegal.

Whether or not you can get pregnant is utterly irrelevant to the discussion. Killing babies is wrong, and that fact does not change if you're a man or a woman. Ethics are not subjective.

As God is perpetually all-pervasive, It must also be with all those in Hell, if there be such a place.
When asked what his religion was, the atheist, the Dalai Lama, replied, "My religion is Kindness."
Whatever name you give It, It's only the Ultimate Source.
Ethics are subjective unless they derive from that Ultimate Source which is Reality within and beyond this world.
Given that all-pervasiveness [unlimitedness], you may as well believe that 'Thou Art That' as well, and behave accordingly.

Christopher, ethics are totally a product of your society, your upbringing. To a cannibal, killing and eating other men is not an act of murder. You can try to convince him of that while standing in the step pot.

Placing the weak, crippled and unwanted children out on the rocks to die was a practice in Sparta.

Ethics? No, you have that code relating only to your society and "religious' upbringing. That's fine and they work for you. One size doesn't fit all.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics.~Robert A. Heinlein

The founding Fathers knew that which is why there is no Official State Religion.

There isn't an 11th Commandment either telling us to make sure others don't sin. Most of us have a difficult time handling that for ourselves.

@veedub, your last 2 sentences. It does seem that way doesn't it? Everybody minding everybody else's business and nobody minding their own.

We likes it out here in the woods cause we all understand each other, the wild creatures and us. If anybody fails the others will dispose of the evidence. Much like society, but up front and honest about it.

VW and GS : I gave your comments a long think. I read them to be true. So I read them to say, ethics is an inside job and it is not a governmental responsibility.

And for this thread to become yet one more argument regarding abortion misses the point of the thread.

The 'clean-up' of the American social landscape will require an all-encompassing fire, sparked by a lightening bolt, before it is reseeded in sterile and fertile soil.

American 'culture', at this point in time, seems to be held together by briars, brambles, wait-a-minute vines, and kudzu, with vipers at every step.

I watched a special on Yellowstone last night. The paradigm fits. Only after US forestry quit putting out fires and let nature take its own course did the first new saplings for mighty sequoias sprout, guaranteeing continuity for the trees.

And sequoias are the oldest living organisms on the earth, surviving the fires because they have a thick and impervious bark.

VW and GS : I gave your comments a long think. I read them to be true. So I read them to say, ethics is an inside job and it is not a governmental responsibility.

And for this thread to become yet one more argument regarding abortion misses the point of the thread.

The 'clean-up' of the American social landscape will require an all-encompassing fire, sparked by a lightening bolt, before it is reseeded in sterile and fertile soil. American 'culture', at this point in time, seems to be held together by briars, brambles, wait-a-minute vines, and kudzu, with vipers at every step.
I watched a special on Yellowstone last night. The paradigm fits. Only after US forestry quit putting out fires and let nature take its own course did the first new saplings for mighty sequoias sprout, guaranteeing continuity for the trees.

And sequoias are the oldest living organisms on the earth, surviving the fires because they have a thick and impervious bark.

Now there is an oxymoron: Governmental ethics. Perhaps the type we've seen from this Congress or Obama.

We have teachers changing exam scores in Georgia, no show classes in NC with degrees, teachers humping the students, priests boinking altar boys, pastors diddling choir girls, Mayors in Charlotte NC taking bribes, voter fraud, the AG violating laws, the IRS doing the same, Obama shredding the Constitution and Congress sitting on their thumbs.

Ethics is a word banned like they used to ban books in Boston.

"From the start of recorded time to now this is an absolute, as absolute as an absolute can be. Starting with the Pantheists to the Deists, Romans and Greeks, Christians, Jews, Anglicans and Muslims, next to the fouler of the collection, Liberals, Socialists and Communists and finally to the most corrupt, the Environmentalists, all will have you live their way or be destroyed.
Believe not, listen to their preaching and be warned!" ~ Robert A. Heinlein

Ethics! Most people won't even tell a cashier they gave them too much change. But they'll go to church, thump that Bible and tell everyone not to sin!

When one life is sacred, all lives are sacred. Our sacred status is the basis for much of western law. Do you really want to live in a world that values your utility more than your humanity?

Really?

American society in 3 panels:

http://tiny.cc/x9x0ox

Smokey, I love it!

"Christopher, ethics are totally a product of your society, your upbringing."

I guess it means what you mean by the word "ethics." If you mean "what a society agrees upon" or "what we choose to do" then yes, you're right, they're simply a cultural construct.

However, the word ethics, properly understood, means basic right and wrong, which is always true in all circumstances, in all ages, regardless of what a culture decides.

Killing Jews as an inferior race and making lampshades out of their skin: wrong. Even if for a time a society decides it is good and right. And everyone knows this to be true, no matter what semantics or philosophical arguments people attempt. We all know this.

Right and wrong is objective and absolute. We agree to this or we don't but that doesn't change a thing.

Judge: yes, morals is an Inside Job. They make up the principles by which individuals live in families, groups, society at large.

Don't lie, cheat, steal, murder; do help those less fortunate; be kind, courteous, considerate. Values like this belong to no one religious order but are common to all of 'em.

Just as we can say that a person's personality is superficial and changing while one's character is internal and mostly unchanging, so might we say that morals refers to the inner values, the constants of a person while ethics depend on externals like social environment, societal groups, situations.

We've heard of "lifeboat morality" where in a certain set of circumstances to steal food warrants death while in most every day circumstances to steal food might get one a good hard punch in the face.

Oh boy, drifting here, sorry. "The 'clean-up' of the American social landscape will require an all-encompassing fire, sparked by a lightening bolt, before it is reseeded in sterile and fertile soil." sounds a bit harsh but I believe that the prophesies found in Revelation will come to pass so, maybe not so harsh after all. A total cleansing must occur I agree. Going back to the values and morals of just a century ago would be nice.

Let's try Ecclesiastes 1

9 - The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 - Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it has been already of old time, which was before us.

Christopher, Religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason; Religions dealing in absolutes cannot exist in the same sphere without colliding at some point. Islam and Christianity is currently on the front burner.

But your thinking that universal control over all uteri in the US for starters is condign, then one can extend that to compelling others to have or have not an operation for organ transplant, sex change or require one to avoid a desired medical procedure. Someone else will choose for you.

This will fit your requirement of absolutes. One size fits all, zero tolerance.

What weapons will you select to enforce your will on other cultures?

"Right and wrong is objective and absolute."
=======================

And don't forget the ever important, "It's none of your business."

Religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason

[ citation needed ] Please list the wars you believe were caused by religion.

I put together this list of the most recent major wars. Let's see what caused them:

WAR / PROXIMATE CAUSE / RELIGIOUS NATURE

Gulf War / Invasion of Kuwait by Iraq / None

Vietnam War / Cold War Proxy / None

Korean War / Cold War Proxy / None

Cold War / Military-Industrial "Capitalism" vs. International Socialism / None

World War II / National Socialism vs. International Socialism / None

World War I / Revolutionary Nationalism vs. Christian Empires / None

Mexican Border War / Banditry / None

Philippine War / Imperial Conquest / None

Spanish-American War / Spanish Empire vs. American Empire / None

Third-Phase Indian Wars / Territorial Dispute: Industrial Capitalism vs. Neolithic Tribes / None

U.S. Civil War / Slavery; States' Rights / None

Second-Phase Indian Wars / Territorial Dispute: Industrial Capitalism vs. Neolithic Tribes / None

Mexican-American War / Territorial Dispute; Slavery / None

First-Phase Indian Wars / Territorial Dispute: Industrial Capitalism vs. Neolithic Tribes / None

War of 1812 / Sovereignty Dispute / None

Revolutionary War / Revolutionary Nationalism vs. Empire / None

Hmm. Not a lot of religious wars there. In fact, one has to look back all the way to the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648) to find a recent example of a major war caused primarily by religion.
The French Wars of Religion (1562-1598) and the Crusades (1095-1291) are really the only other truly religious wars in all of Western history.

The only two examples of wars based upon religion in the past fifty years are the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990 and the Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005), both of which were strictly regional dust-ups.

I have to say that your contention ("Religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason") appears shaky.

you left out all the conflicts in the Middle East, the African uprisings such as the Mau Mau argument with the Europeans, The Balkan upset, the Chechen workout, and these are the last 25 or so years.

No sir, Mr. Woodchuck, you left out those wars. You are the one making the claim ("Religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason"); the burden of proof lies on you. Absent any evidence from you to support that claim, I have no reason to believe it to be true.

Now: you claim that religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason. I invite you now to support that claim with evidence. If you do not show evidence that the majority of wars throughout all of history have been fought for religious causes, then I say, with all due respect, that your claim is baseless and without merit.

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Goering

Shibes Meadow, Now I understand. Since I didn't specifically mention each and every one by name they don't exist. I guess I won't mention the Holocaust since that had no religious connotations either and now that doesn't exist.

I guess Northern Ireland is a myth too.

I don't know about your background. For me, anytime someone is shooting at me, I'm in a war be it whether some Priest, Pope, Rabbi, Mullah, Politician, Despot or Self-appointed God started it. That it might be 'Ideology as God' or 'Social Conservatism as God' makes no difference who or which is invoking the "Name", you can wind up just as dead.

The "Divine Right of Kings" may have been wishful thinking, but it killed a shitload of people.

Since I didn't specifically mention each and every one by name they don't exist

You didn't mention even one.

the Holocaust

...was not the cause of World War II.

Northern Ireland is a myth too

That's a better example. Religion most certainly did and does play a role in the troubles between the UK and Ireland, although it is/was not directly the cause of the, The actual cause of the problems in Ireland is the British colonization of Ireland, which has no religious dimension in and of itself.

anytime someone is shooting at me, I'm in a war be it whether some Priest, Pope, Rabbi, Mullah, Politician, Despot or Self-appointed God started it. That it might be 'Ideology as God' or 'Social Conservatism as God'

Weasel words. You cannot provide any examples of wars caused by religion, so you are attempting to redfine "religion" to include ideology, etc/ This indicates to me that you cannot support your claim with evidence.

Why don't you just be honest and admit you are wrong? There's no crime in being wrong, and trying to wiggle out of it makes one look foolish and dishonest. Plenty of people make the same mistake you have. Admit that you were wrong and let's move on.

Right or wrong, something about dead horses comes to mind. I just learned how to spell diminishing returns.

I am ready to move on to more interesting aspects of the recent political shift, like the way law enforcement will behave for the next two years.

"If law enforcement continues to treat the citizenry as their enemy they should not be surprised if the citizenry comes to believe them."

"That's the nice thing about reality though, consequences are immediate and proportional: a short'n sharp feedback, no room for dithering excuses." — Remus

Religion has been the cause of more wars than any other reason

Woodchuck: That meme is so old and trite that it's filed in the same folder with "See Dick run" and "Why did the chicken cross the road?"

It's called mindless parroting.

Hell, I remember when I used to say it.

When the religion is inside the government, or is the government, then they call wars between governments or to gain the power within that government religious wars. But they are not. They are political wars. The Hundred Years War and the English Civil War were about preserving power vs.changing politics.